Some concern about recent looting...

[Syura]

From our DKP rule
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6707

　12. The price is 15 pp while alt char participate a bid and must loot directly with the character in the zone, due to the change of No-Trade to Heirloom.

I have question.
What else to be condition for ALT looting? Recently I have seen people looting for alt that is not in guild, not saying which char to use (can cheat dkp if used on main instead of alt), and even looting for non lv80 characters. It doesn't look healthy to me now.

Say some ALTs are used more often than other ALTs, and sometimes it is even crucial to ask those people to use their ALT for the raid or we can't even try certain encounter. I would hate to see when some drops that no main can use but these ALT can use , then ALT not even lv80 and not even in TSM getting those loots over them. It would be hard to limit which ALT has advantage or not to be fair, but at least, there should be some other guideline for this.

I thought ALT looting is for making backup force as if we need different class other than their main character which CAN BE USED in TSM raid. Or it is open for whatever guild's ALTs belong and whatever level those ALTs are. I don't mind those are belonging some ALT guilds but to be honest, it would be nearly impossible to use for ALTs that not belong to our guild, and never seen any ALTs that used who belong to different guild as our backup force. Which to me it is just wasting loots because of this fact. It would be more make sense that those ALT looting goes to ALT in guild first, then if still no one, should consider those giving loots for plat as for gratitude for participating to raids.


And as for ALT looting for recruits....
please just don't allow it until he finished his recruit period to make sense. I would hate to see some guild hopper or those just joined (which hardly helping raid as they need to learn) would be taking loots over those who have been in force and have been waited for their alt for long. ... I have seen this happened recently too.

As I'm aware, this is just for ALT... not main so who cares, right? However, in many encounter in TSO, we are in fact using many ALTs as we lack those class at that time, and have no choice. That's why it would be better to set guideline for ALT loots by looking at recent looting by people in raid.

Just some feedback from humble SK.

[Crlight]

We already have a few pages long discussions before we made the decision.

I do know your concerns, some of our officers also said about this too.

First of, we have to minimize the bidding rules for faster raid pace and decrease the work loads for RLs.

We sure could add some other limits or lookups while alts are bidding, such as attendance or even main's DKP rank. But this will further bring some other issues too, like mains keep saving DKPs for alts bidding, and I do not want alts using DKPs, even just the ranks of DKP.

Second, our guild rule do not allow alts in mutiple guilds. But due to the hard times and some member need the convenience of their own guildhalls, the rule itself is a bit relaxed. Turns out, I do not seriously forbid those who against the rule, but they have to explain to me before they apply. Therefore, they trade their loyalty for the convenience, then they might loose some of the profit for being our guild member, so I do agree with you that alts not even in our guild are not allowed to bid too. But it is hard to know the loot is actualy on which toon, and we can not prove the whole process while it is a black box when transfering those loots between different characters.

Currently, I am collecting some feedbacks from officers, maybe we will have some kind of adjustments to the rules.

[Celrovlo]

So someone finally came up with this topic huh?
This is one of those subjects I just cant pop it up easily myself, because I'll feel like─or someone will─that I'm flaming it up for getting myself more raid loots or something. I cant really come up with anything stunning different from others might would had said, but since Syura has threw this up, I just cant resist not to say something about it.

The "looting for alts" problem isnt really a shiny new issue at all. Before heirlooms came in, people were already using alts looting loots, which can ONLY be seen briefly by these times. You wont be able to see them actually playing these alts, they just log in to get the loots and vanish until next time something drops.

After the heirloom tagging thingy, this phenomenon is growing to be incredibly unbearable. Lately it is becoming just impossible to figure out where those loots went to. Its like "did he even have an alt that can use it?". And just how do letting loots going to these ghostlike alts can benefit our guild in any possible way?

I know that by bringing up this topic and censuring people about it will make some people going like "you're the big bad meany!" especially when this is how Chinese people just love to do. Another thing is, yes they are still playing by the rules, and for what I have seen in TSM for years is, we are always afraid of changing the rules we are playing with: as long as something is not against the rule we convince ourself to cope with it. But there are times that rules just are not flawless, and for this specific topic, simply following the rules we have now is definitely not logically beneficial to the guild nor positively moral. By this, its just hard to stand there and pretend its nothing at all.

I'm pretty sure anyone who had participated our raid for a while, can/will notice that some people (including me) switches for alts more frequently to help out the raid than others. I'm not trying to make this personally, since doing so is only a way to give out the best contribution we can offer to our guild, just like everyone else is doing or should be doing. Making superiority out of this will be too arrogant and nothing else. However, I honestly can not approve the way people can not appreciate these raid loots for benefiting the raid process as a priority, it is such a huge waste and it hurts me to just watching it happen.

Morality reasons is hard if not impossible to unify what everyone should do. That is why rules are necessary for these situation. And that is why I had always been talking about rules all the time(and more over, strict administration of the rules!!).

As I had just wroted above, I know that it had always been hard for TSM to make up decisions and modifying our rules, what I do fear is that it will not be any difference this time, but please, take what I wrote seriously and not the same old usual "subside tactic" again(okay, I cant figure out a word for this in English but you know what I mean).Also keep in mind that 90% of people can not and will not ever see the "few pages long discussions" mentioned. If there is any discussion made, what was going on and how the final decisions came out should not be kept from guild members (I think I made a topic on this a few years ago).

[Crlight]

As I mentioned, I do know the problem and whats going on, but please give me a better way then just telling me these kinds of things.

The rules is to protect, to maintain the profits of everyone in the guild, not just customized for some special situations, I think everyone would agree with this. But if we are going to decide or even control the loots besides how much DKPs they have, why don't we change to some kind of "RL call loot" rules? Then nothing will be wasted at all.

So how do you define those who "switches for alts more frequently to help out the raid"? Yes, who participate raids more often will know, but that is just how we think and it is subjective. We don't have an objective way or guildlines at this time besides DKP. I am not denying to make a change, what I need is a way everyone could agree with and minimize any possibility which brings dispute.

I can honestly tell you that we can't figure a better solution at that time. And I am willing to listen to your solutions then just telling me something went wrong. We officers IS those who participate raids more often, and we don't enjoy seeing loots rot on those "dead alts" either.

[Syura]

Yes, it would be very hard to give alt dkp and probably not good idea to keep fairness, and no one would like to have strong restriction. But still can ask to be enough lv to use the item and/or in the guild to do alt raid looting at least, for example. We don't want to make loots going somewhere guild doesn't know to track. So asking must be in guild is at least we can ask for people.

But once again, if everyone just doesn't care much since its alt looting, that's fine with me too.
I'm just giving some feedback since like it or not, we can't run raid without these raid alts currently (and no need to say it's hard to recruit full time players ).

Thanks for reply.

[Shillien]

took me 5 minutes to read em all.. =_=
whatever the alt bid goes to an useful alt in raid or totally useless alt, it is too complex to make it fair to everyone. some ppl also has good alts for raid, but raid doesn't need em coz the class necessay, you know. if make alt loot priority, it sounds unfair to em. it is hard to solve in short time, but we could do the first step.
i do believe that we have to limit those alt bid for non-lvl80 alt characters first.
i can't see any point to let non-lvl80 alt to bid for alt loots. no sense, pointless, why get loots for those non-lvl80 char and can't even equip it coz not reach the equip level? if it could to do in this way, well, why i don't bid all loots for all my lvl10 little junky!? so it should be start to limit non-lvl80 char bid for alt loots first

[Crlight]

Thanks Shillien, maybe it's a good start.

For those who are lazy to read the whole topic:

In short, the only concern made us aware of doing some changes to the alt looting rule is that we can't provide some kind of loot order to those alts.

It is welcome to give us some advice on this issue.

[eega]

The must simple way is raising the price of loot for alt. And it was done once (3pp->15pp). If it is not enough, we can try 2 dkp + 15pp I guess.

Add a special alt rank is not good idea because we'll have problem to decide who is special alt or not. And.. one question: "If one alt is really so important in raid... why not switch it to main?"

[Crlight]

The must simple way is raising the price of loot for alt. And it was done once (3pp->15pp). If it is not enough, we can try 2 dkp + 15pp I guess.

Letting alt use DKPs is not a good idea. Which may cause some other issues. Let DKPs stays on main is my opinion.

Add a special alt rank is not good idea because we'll have problem to decide who is special alt or not. And.. one question: "If one alt is really so important in raid... why not switch it to main?"

Hehe, this is what I have replied in the officer forum.

In fact, shifting alts in raid is not a normal and right way, it is because we need those classes. So again, I didn't thought it is a big deal while we have all the classes and good players.

But as Syura mentioned, it is an "ongoing situation" now.

[Celrovlo]

Suggestions of specifically what to do ? okay here we goes:
Easy part:
As Syura has suggested before. Add alts names when bidding for it, at least let everyone know where that loot is going to. Able to keep the anonymity of which alts is using it is causing the rise of alt looting because it makes it easier for some unknown alt to loot it with out being noticed(or at least it might seems like no one is noticing).
Not only change the rules but tell members why!: for instance, why is the reason the prices of loots for alts has been raisen to 15PP? Put it in words and let people know why it is happening, so people can understand that there is people that actually care. Policies can speak out what no one wants to spit it into the face on spot and be a jerk. Reflections from members can be received much more easier this way, spit out if like it or not, if they say nothing its their own lost.

The complicated(realtively to above) part is just to make an alt list
It isnt as difficult as it sounds. Just simply start a post and make people to list out their alts and which of them are "active". I wouldnt be really concerned about the order of the alts. If its indicated clearly that people that loots for alts that isnt even using is suckers, then people will know why it should be declared which alts are active. Which also can act as a self filter to reconsider the situation. For example if I want to be a greedy bastard and list my necro and berzerker as "active", or bid loots for them even though I'm not using them. People will see it when I list it or see it when I bid loots, and therefore I will/should know that when I'm doing I am acting like a jerk and no one likes me. If you can trust members not to be cheating by bidding as a main to loot for alts or vice versa, you can pretty much trust members listing their own alts with honesty, right? Again, I wouldnt really care for prioriorty or not, its just that looting for characters which is not in use simply sucks, and if it sucks it should be said out loud: YES, YOU SUCK FOR DOING THAT AND WE ARE CURSING YOU FOR IT.
For addition, dont worry too much about whos checking the list or what if someone doesnt reads the website blah blah blah.....It can always be check afterwards while theres a full raid looking at it, I'm sure there will be people keeping their mind on who is looting what. If anyone tries to cheat on it just execute a penalty. If anyone says he doesnt knows about it, it only means s/he's a baka who doesnt checks this gwebsite and should get an aluba penalty anyway, because not knowing the rule isnt even a reason you can be breaking it.

Oh, and why did I spent my time saying what is wrong? Because I didnt see anyone saying it out in public or posting it out anywhere. I dont blame anyone because I can understand that not many people wants to be the jerk like I do. Officer discussions just dont count, because there is a hell lot of people who cant see them, and I dont even know if they said everything they think or everything thats happenning. How can anyone know what is going on in others mind if no one is saying it out? Maybe you have already heard a lot from the officers and maybe you are smart enough to read out what people would think, but there are people that isnt that keen enough. Posting it so everyone can see it means that I WANT EVERYONE TO SEE IT, or I could had just used PMs or MSNs couldnt I?
(well okay...maybe I should be translating it into Chinese this way then...I blame Syura for using English at the first place though )

[eega]

I can understand what fewC is talking about. Just wanna mention one thing. If we following your point, we are doing same thing that made TFH breakdown. Their problem is they assume everyone should focus and devote in raid progress, but actually not so. After they kicked out all ppl not meet their standard, sadly only one or 2 group were left... and no more ppl cuz their poor pure chinese member rule.

BTW, you never know if you will need some non-actived loot sucker one day. We ever lose all main coercer and dirge in very short period. Who knows what will happen in next 2 months?

[Celrovlo]

Did you not see me saying I dont care about priority or anything about it?

I wouldnt mind if they want loots for characters they are actually playing. Thats why I suggested to let members recognize it clearly and sign up by "themselves" which toons they are really playing. If anyone wants to lie about it and be greedy, they will actually have to sign up "I am a greedy sucker and even though this toon havnt been played for monthes I'm still going to say its active and loot everything mwahahahaha" on the post board. I'm totally not against with looting for alts anyone is really playing, same even if we might never need it in the raid, it is not just about raid progress.

The point is to organize up who has which alts. And I understand its a hard thing to figure it out individualy...so thats another reason to let people doing it themselves... Dont do it, you dont get to loot. Follow the rules then you get to loot normally, simply the carrot or stick situation.

[Elventunes]

Hello

I think i might have been the first one to alt loot for a character that was not 80 yet and about 3 days later the alt loot went up 15p . I mentioned it to Vanus on the third bid that it was for a character not yet 80 after there was a pretty nice piece of loot and she said it would be better to let a lvl 80 have it which is fine. I did loot a pattern the other night too after no one wanted it either on main or alt and I asked if it was ok first.

Saying that though the reason I have done that is so that I have a viable alt for raiding as there does not seem to be any Warlocks that play be they alts or mains though there are some on the DKP list. The alt im talking about is a 77 Warlock called Eminica which should be 80 pretty soon. I was hoping that if there are 2 or 3 dirges running in the raid then i could use the warlock and also to use in groups.

One solution might be to limit the amount of alts that you can loot for. Say you have 2 alts. You can nominate them with the officers and they can write it under your name in the guild window. Everyone knows which alts they are and if alt loot comes up then these are the ones you can loot for.

This would also make sure that the loot gets concentrated more on usefull alts and not some alt that never gets played but gets the loot just because its the right class.

For example 2 ppl have a coercer but the second person never plays the coercer. Leg pattern drops and 2 alt coercers roll and second alt gets it. Now that would not be right if the first alt gets swapped out to play on certain nights because we are short on coercers.

This way you nominate and i think you will end up with very useable alts in raids with all the loot going to those alts that can use and will contribute to the raid at one time or other.

I would also like to c priorty given on some loots and to have set groups so that you have a MT group, and OT group and melee DPS and range DPS. If a really good tank piece drops then it should go to the MT then his healers then buffers. Then you set up the OT group and so on. ATM Syura has the most DKP anyway so he can outbid anyone but when the next epansion comes out that will change. This might not be the right thread for this though .

[Crlight]

okay, let me conclude this thread.

Seems like it might be a good idea to run both alt level limits and make an alt tracking list, like having all members write down 2 alts max by themselves. Once a piece of loot drops and become an alt loot, the loot priority will be:

roll amount > weather it is on the list or not > most fit-able loot type (according to DKP rule)

This will be further disccused by officers soon, and thanks for those who have participated in the thread.

[Darkevileyes]

Could main char bid gears for alt by dkp ?
If rule cannot agree ,is any punishment for the violation?